MyDD :: What do you (HRC supporters) want?

What do you (HRC supporters) want?

by PantsB, Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:15:38 PM EST

Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee for President of the United States of America.

He just is. He has won the primary season. He's increasingly winning the super delegate count. He'll almost assuredly win the popular vote despite ludicrous claims of 2,000,000 turnout in PR.

I know many among you don't want this to be the case. You've supported HRC as a candidate or as a symbol and culmination of the feminist movement*. You've held out hope and scraped and raged against the truth. Its time to accept it.

She lost. He won. Even if Michigan and Florida delegates were given full status, Obama is going to win the delegate count. Its over.

But even if you're not willing to accept that, there's a question I'd like answered. What do you think is going to happen? What is it going to take?

If and when Hillary Clinton concedes, what is going to change? What if she doesn't until the convention a la 1980?

This campaign is more and more clearly not going to go out with a bang but a whimper. Obama will not be granted the bump of a big victory that clinches the deal because he essentially gained this nomination in February and his opponent has been unable to close the gap and unwilling to step aside. Instead if she can put her own ambition to the side, Senator Clinton will concede on June 3 and there will be a collective sigh of relief but no shout of triumph.

There will be no Dean "shriek" - those already happened and the Clinton campaign plugged on. There will be landslide primaries but the media has rightfully already concluded Obama has won and can't even bring themselves to hype their coverage much anymore. Obama will officially become the presumptive nominee and everyone will essentially say "No kidding" and go about their day.

So what is going to change your mind, the passionate, unrelenting Clinton supporter?
Jerome said on the FP today:

This is a Democratic site. Clinton is a Democrat, and she has supporters here. If you are an Obama supporter, and don't like that, tough. Deal with it.

How long is that going to hold true? Obama is going to be the head of the Democratic party and the next President of the United States of the America. When do the articles (that are openly based on HRC support) on how he can't win, or shouldn't be the nominee, going to continue?

And franky, why should we listen to you? For those who have been spewing anti-Obama vitriol and have claimed HRC is still going to win, how can anyone see you as a legitimate Obama supporter once the general election comes? And if you're not an Obama supporter, why are you here?

This is a Democratic site.

That includes you Jerome. How can we take anything said seriously by one of the site's primary Front Pagers when your spin has been (again to be blunt) ridiculous at times?

What can possibly change between now and June 3 that will change your mind if it hasn't been done already? How can it reasonably be significant enough for other posters or readers to see the entire record to be coherent when nothing has changed the reasoning before?

And if nothing will, what are you doing at a Democratic site if you won't support the Democratic candidate?

-------------------------
(*) This has been stated outright on this site a surprising number of times. I don't mean to demean HRC as "the woman candidate" and I think those who view her as such are actually doing themselves (and her) a disservice.

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Votes: 55
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Tags: 2008 election (all tags)

Permalink :: 98 Comments :: Post a Comment

I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 3)

rationale discoures. Obams is not the nominee..yet. Won't be until the convention.

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:21:28 PM EST

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 1)

Nobody is ever nominee until the convention but if it is to be Obama he will need the summer to be able to act like the nominee and establish himself before the convention. Are you objecting to this notion?

by wasder on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 2)

Obama is actually far less offensive (In fact, I dont find him offensive at all) about this issue than the diarist and others like him. Needling an opponent to give up when the game isn't over isn't going to win you many friends among those who you have just defeated, especially when you will need those people to win the next game.

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

I hear you Mayor but I would make clear to you that after the last votes are cast in the primaries he is likely going to roll out the number of supers he needs to clinch the nomination (either at 2025 or 2210) and then declare himself to be the defacto nomineee. What will be your reaction then?

by wasder on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Universal healthcare and a premium cap so that (none / 0)

the combined cost of premiums and drugs for all families, rich or poor, was less than 10% of income in a worst case (serious illness) scenario.

If this is expensive CUT THE PENTAGON BUDGET TO PAY FOR IT, DAMMIT.

Ideally they should be free, LIKE THEY ARE IN OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.

Poor Americans should not be subsidizing drug advertising and research for the entire rest of the world..

Just because Obama is black does not mean he is progressive.

We are not so stupid as to not see his pro-corporate anti-working people agenda.

Also, I would like to see the US stop subsidizing 'defense' for the rest of the world. Korea, Japan, etc. are rich enough to defend themselves. PUT THAT MONEY INTO SCHOOLS SO THAT AMERICA CAN HAVE A FUTURE.

STOP THE PATHETIC EXCUSES.

Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.

by architek on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Universal healthcare and a premium cap so that (none / 0)

Hillary, woman, mutatis mutandis. Otherwise, I find your use of capital letters utterly convincing.

Donate to Hillary Now!

by guazatragicness on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 3)

If this was reversed, and Hillary was the presumed nominee, wouldn't you find it destructive to have Obama supporters bashing Hillary all the way to the convention? What if we bashed Bill Clinton all the way to the convention?

Anyone bashing Obama at this late stage is helping to destroy not only Obama, but the party and its goals. Anyone discussing protesting the convention should be banned, as that would be about the most destruction thing to our party you can imagine.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 1)

Obama supporters have already been bashing BC - so what else is new? Same with Hillary - some of the most vile talking points straight out the 1990's republican playbook.

Sorry, Obama still does not have it in the bag. Until he does, he is still open to criticism - and even then, he will still be open to criticism. That is valid.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 3)

Do you feel bashing Obama all the way to the convention is beneficial to the party's goals? Admit it, you a trying to destroy Obama. If it continues after the primaries/caucuses are over, than you don't have the party's best interest in mind. Anyone doing so is inviting a war in Iran that may incite WWIII. Anyone doing so is throwing away a woman's right to choose. Anyone doing so is allowing torture and the Iraq war to continue. Anyone doing so is OK with adding trillions more to the debt, and the literal destruction of our economy. Anyone who is willing to throw all this to the wind to get back at those that helped Obama win can burn in hell. My brother is in Iraq, and will go to Iran if we don't win in the Fall. Please don't let that happen. I beg you.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:05:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 1)

admit it - you want to be a republican. Because you do realize that is how republicans work. Never criticize, never think outside of the box - just do what they tell you do.

If Obama makes a statement that is completely out of lines (such as policy), you bet I will criticize him on that.

We are Progressives, Democrats - proud of the fact that we don't do group-think.

Getting democrats to do that is like herding cats - you can't do it. We are the big tent party.

Perhaps your plea would have been better received back in Jan/Feb/March when Hillary Clinton, a loyal democrat, was smeared with republican right wing talking points from the DEMOCRATS. So, while I understand it is fine to criticize Hillary about her policies, her AUMF vote, to call her a monster, a she-devil, a neo-con, a republican, divisive, anything-to-win - all of those talking points PALE in comparison to whatever criticism I leverage towards Obama.

I defended him against the Muslim smear, the photo smear. I have defended any smears on his marriage. But policies - I can criticize and will continue to do so. Because although he may be a liberal, he has a lot of conservative dems in his campaign and his policies are luddite at best. Hillary, even though she is an "old" lady and isn't kewl enough, has been praised for her very progressive and out-of-the-box policies and thinking. Hillary, if nominated, could have been the next FDR.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:13:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 3)

One of two parties will win in the Fall. One will go to war with Iran. One will not. Choose a side.

Stark reality. You know whats at stake. You're pussy-footing around reality.

And no, that is not a 'sexist' comment.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

yep, I do.

sad, really. if it is McCain & Obama, both of them, imho, are not fit enough for the presidency

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 1)

oh and too bad you were not this passionate in 2000 or 2004. Because the stark reality is that we had the same issues at stake then.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (2.00 / 1)

Who says I wasn't?

Are you for our party's goals, or are you for Hillary?

Such devotion to a leader is a little disturbing. How did you get so die hard attached to a candidate? I supported Hillary before she went negative, so I understand her appeal, but damn, there's a point to where it starts to looks a bit spooky.

You realize what your saying, right? Your willing to help destroy our economy, our military, and our rights because some Obama supporters hurt your feelings and criticized our girl. Who are you really working for?

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

that is a little bit of hyperbole. We still have a majority in the houses and I will continue to work for that goal.

Again, I have no idea what to do in Nov. Perhaps when the party heads stop underestimating my vote (as I am not one of the shiny new ones) and taking me for granted, perhaps when I see that Obama could be presidental (and speeches don't cut it for me - I need more), then perhaps the Democratic party earned my vote

my vote needs to be earned. It is not a given.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

How did you come to the point of hating Obama? Obama believes in 95% or more of Hillary's ideas. Why such caustic hatred of a fellow democrat?

You know that my brother will end up in Iran if you and others fail to support our party's nominee in the fall. This is personal to me. I'd love to have Hillary as the nominee, but it appears she's not going to make it. I plead with you, again, to support the nominee, whoever that might be, that will keep us out of Iran and help bring my brother home from Iraq. He has a wife and kids whom he hasn't seen for over a year. This is his second tour away from them.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

who stated I hated him? That is a tad harsh. I don't hate him.

I doubt we will go to war with Iran. We don't have the boots.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

But you won't vote for him. Also, go read your past Obama comments. You might not hate Obama, but your comments about him speak volumes.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

no, I think you need to re-read my comments. I stated I don't know what to do come nov. Might mean I vote for Obama or I might now.

pushing me and trying to bully me into something that I am not sure of now for something that is 6 months away is not the way to go.

just saying.

my past comments of Obama are critical and yes, I do not think he is ready to be president.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I woud 't mind some (none / 0)

Oh, and telling people to burn in hell - I found out that is a TR offense.

not that I will troll rate you, but thought you should know that.

BTW: I am agnostic and don't believe in the heaven or hell stuff

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would 't mind some (none / 0)

As Hillary correctly said... "If you can't stand the heat..."

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would 't mind some (none / 0)

well, yes, the kitchen is about as close as hell as I have come to.

I hate to cook.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Obama is de facto the nominee.

by french imp on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:22:56 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

arguably, yes. But to say "he is the nominee" is IMHO, not a good way to want to reach out and try to end this thing without acrimony, which some Obama supporters, if not the diarist, appear to want.

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 2)

Yeah but acting like this process still has some drama to play out, as if Clinton has a chance to be the nominee is insulting. Continuing to act as if there is any doubt left in this process as to who th victor is, is insulting. Lastly, acting as if a floor fight at the convention is something that is good for the party or our chances in the fall is insulting, and delusional.

Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!

by RockvilleLiberal2 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Where have I advocated floor fight? I dont want one. I just have no problem with letting all the primaries play out. She may not have a chance to be the nominee, but even the oddmakeers give her a small one. This is America, where we are told never to give up and to fight on despite the odds. Also, I have no problem with fighting to win delegates and influence the platform and the VP selection process.

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

A floor fight is the best thing in the world if you believe that he is not qualified to be president and you do not believe he has the ability to win.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

If you believe he is less qualified to be president than the Republican nominee, then vote for McCain. If you believe he cannot win, why go through the drama of the floor fight, unless you are working to shape the result to fulfill your prediction. If you do not understand how a floor fight would severely cripple the chances of whoever triumphs, you are not attending to history.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

I understand all of your points. I will never vote for McCain, I will sit out if anything. A floor fight has in past hurt the chances of the nominee, and I'm sure they would this time as well. I would rather take my chances in the fight if the right candidate gets the nomination, than to give up and let the wrong candidate win the nomination and lose the election. In My Opinion of course.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

Clearly your prerogative, and one I respect. I would ask you to take into consideration the question of the best chance for the best possible president based on political realities. If you truly believe that Obama will not be significantly better than McCain, it would seem reasonable to push for an HRC longshot bid, which is what a floor fight victory for her would represent. If, however, you deem Obama a significantly better choice than McCain, I ask you to weigh a strong position for Obama against a weak one for your candidate of preference. I trust you will make the best choice for yourself and hope it turn out to be the most productive one for all of us. For the record, I consider HRC to be preferable to McCain in the extreme. I think she could be a fine president in many ways. My personal judgment is that Obama would be better.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for a reasonable reply and conversation.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not an original Obama supporter (2.00 / 1)

My first choice was Al Gore.

When it was clear he wasn't running I weighed Obama and Clinton (I did not see Edwards as viable). On the day of my primary (Massachusetts) I decided to support Barack Obama based on a number of factors. HRC won my state and if she had a sizable lead as Obama does, I would support her.

Her conduct in the campaign has had a major negative effect on my view of her but even so if my only choices were HRC and McCain, there's no question who I'd support. I'm not going to stay home because my first choice didn't make it and I don't think anyone who supported HRC for her polices should either.

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not an original Obama supporter (none / 0)

My staying home is more about qualification than anything. Having voted for John Kerry I understand coming together for party even when you dislike the nominee. Unlike Senator Kerry, Senator Obama just does not seem qualified to me. In the end abstention seems the only option for me.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:21:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Barack Obama is the nominee. John McCain is his party's nominee. Four years ago today the nominees were John Kerry and George Bush. Four years before that they were Al Gore and George Bush.

Its the denial I'm trying to break through. The convention is not an election, its where the results are officially trumpeted and the platform is announced.

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

No, the convention is where teh nominee is actually chosen. In most cases its a formality, but neitehr McCain or Obama have actually been nominated for anything yet.

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would not support an Obama/McCain ticket (none / 0)

so don't even suggest it

Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.

by architek on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh come on (2.00 / 4)

saying Obama is the nominee is hardly acrimonious. Painting it as an attack is what is acrimonious.

Since when do we have to wait until the convention to accept a presumptive nominee? We have to pretend that Hillary didn't lose because it makes her supporters mad?

We're really supposed to stand by for the entire summer while supposed Democrats hammer away at our nominee as we try to campaign against the GOP?

by Sun Dog on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (none / 0)

We have to wait when the presumptive nominee has not won a clear victory on any level. He does not have the pledged delegates to win, he will never have them. Supers will put him over the top. The race is close, and in the case of a close race declaring anybody the winner is crap. Never in history has any candidate who has won as many delegates as Hillary not taken it to the convention.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (none / 0)

Under our system, it's very hard for anyone to get the delegates to win just based on pledged delegates if someone else wants to stick around. A 60-40 pledged split would still mean that some supers would be needed.

Beat McCain!

by thezzyzx on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (none / 0)

It is very hard indeed, and normally I would not be bothered by the fact that it is suppers that put the nominee over the top. My issues is with the closeness of the election to date, both in delegates and popular vote. Kerry and Gore both came out of the early contests with clear leads and won the nomination outright. Obama did not and has not done this. The party is split almost evenly, the reality is the delegate numbers do not reflect the will of the party in an accurate way.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (2.00 / 1)

Except that Obama had a clear lead in February when he started winning all of those contests. Normally at that point, funding runs out and a candidate has to stop.

It's been an interesting race to say the least. Two popular candidates, both of which represented different parts of the Democratic coalition faced off. Usually you only get one person like this at a time. If either Obama or Clinton had run any other year, this would have been the usual nomination pattern.

Beat McCain!

by thezzyzx on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really want it to go the the convention? (none / 0)

Do you really, really want that? You're not going to change the outcome, just delay it. Obama's nomination is a forgone conclusion, what good would continuing the fight for another two months do? You might have noticed that there's an election to win in November? We need the time between now and the convention to patch things up and come together as a party. Dragging out the process until the bitter nasty end is not going to help that one bit.

by Gene In PA on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really want it to go the the convention (none / 0)

All of your points would be reasonable if I believed he should win. I am not convinced that his winning the highest office in the land is a good thing just because he belongs to my party.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:23:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (none / 0)

It's not so much the what's said, its the way it's said. There's a difference between "Please pass the ketchup" and "Hey jerkface, the ketchup. NOW!"

by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh come on (none / 0)

Well when you have someone sitting there next to the ketchup saying over and over that there is no such thing as ketchup, you're likely to get a little more direct.

by Sun Dog on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

reach out...shmeach out

Hillary and Bill are the ones stirring the acrimony pot for selfish ends. Hillary is the one responsible for getting her supporters on board....and she will be blamed if they aren't.

by JoeCoaster on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

actually, if you go to about MyDD, this is what they state and I still hold them to it.

MyDD is a group blog designed to discuss campaigns, the progressive movement, and political power. We do polling, research, commentary, analysis, and activism. Here are the three front-page writers.

nothing there that states democrats ONLY.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:24:14 PM EST

That is true.. the key word is progressive.. (none / 0)

If the Democrats merge with the Republicans, they WON'T be progressive any more.

Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.

by architek on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 7)

Yes, with diaries like these, I don't think it requires rocket science to figure out why many Clinton supporters are so antagonistic towards the Obama campaign.

And kindly stop the attack on Jerome. You have written in this post that 'This is a Democratic site'.

Precisely. Since when did being a passionate Clinton supporter disqualify anyone from being a Democrat?

by optimisticBoy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:31:00 PM EST

Since pro-HRC became anti-nominee (none / 0)

The problem is not pro-Hillary comments, the problem is they (essentially) all come with an anti-Obama ingredient, and generally with a large dose of unreality.

Barack Obama is the nominee for all intents and purposes. Nothing seems likely to happen between now and the convention that will change the mind of those who are still unwilling to support him instead of attacking him. So whats next?

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since pro-HRC became anti-nominee (2.00 / 1)

I hope you are this passionate on the pro-Hillary diaries, where all the Obama supporters come on board to shit over it.

there were a lot of those - no hint or whiff of Obama in the diary, and yet the swarm occurred.

If Obama IS (because he is NOT as of yet) the nominee, and he does some sorry-azz stupid thing or statement that I totally disagree with, I will criticism him on it.

I've done in the past with others, and I will continue to do it going forward.

You don't like it - fine. But I never got into the groupthink mentality and if I feel that someone who is supposed to represent me ISN'T, then I will speak out.

I hope you would do the same

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since pro-HRC became anti-nominee (none / 0)

Okay.

So instead of reasoning with them and presenting your case, or at the very least trying to forge some unity, you launch a broadside against them?

by optimisticBoy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since pro-HRC became anti-nominee (none / 0)

Locate the "broadside"

I asked them, what can possibly convince them if they haven't been already. This has been easily the longest primary season in the history of the nation. Most general elections have not had the combination of length or intensity this one has (most elections only really began in earnest in August and often there was a September lull).

So what is left?

I think its fair given the number of people who claim HRC voters will abandon Obama in the general to ask if that is the case.

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's your broadside (none / 0)

I am quoting from your diary:

And franky, why should we listen to you?

And if you're not an Obama supporter, why are you here? That includes you Jerome.

I don't think you made those comments for exchaning pleasantries. In fact, you are saying that anyone who still supports Hillary is not a Democrat. As many Clinton supporters would agree here, that is clearly a broadside.

by optimisticBoy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 5)

My belief is that this so called "unity" mantra is without merit. The Democratic party leaders have made it perfectly clear that a restructuring is the goal. And I believe that their isn't any act on anyone's part that will diminish the negative impact of the Axelrod strategy to put in play the race-baiting tactic. The Obama camp took a risk with what I would define as one of the most vile acts taken against another candidate. If he is the nominee, Novemeber will speak to the results of the strategic positions taken by both the Obama camp and the DNC.

by Liberty on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Repeating the accusation that Obama's campaign injected race into this primary cycle does not make it more convincing. That is the interpretation of one side, and reflects the interests of that side. Personally, I think the racializing of this process was likely unavoidable. To hang it on Obama i nothing less than a smear at this point.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

I am not rationalizing the process. It is my perception. I call as I see it. I don't have the need or the desire to convince anyone. You don't agree, fine. As I stated, November will speak to the success or failure of the strategy that I have offered an opinion on.

by Liberty on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

I would ask you whether your perspective bears reevaluation. I have reevaluated mine on HRC at several points. For a moment, I agreed with those who thought the LBJ comment was race baiting. Upon reflection, I no longer think that it was. I also do not buy the accusation that the Obama campaign pushed this idea. On the other hand, Bill Clinton's comment comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson after SC stank and still stinks. You don't have to be a racist to race bait. That's why it's so insidious. I do not, however, hold Bill's comment against her. The comment about hardworking white Americans is disturbing, particularly given the fact that Obama has won states with no significant AA population outside Appalachia. So this reads as suspicious to me. My point is that I believe it pays to reevalute individual statements as opposed to just ascribing to and repeating a narrative especially when that narrative is overdetermined by established sympathies. And for the record, Obama's 'sweetie' comment stunk too, from the standpoint of sexism. It was a gaffe. But he acknowledged it as wrong immediately and took responsibility. It was also not uttered in a situation that could benefit him in any way, which makes it different. But I do not deny that misogyny has played a role, just as racism has. Yet I do not think either has been determinative.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

I have evaluated the race-baiting strategy and am convinced that Axelrod and company initiated this tactic the night of the New Hampshire primary with the aid of Robinson. Personally, I didn't angst over the "sweetie" commentary, but I agree with your assessment that it was an unprofessional act on Obama's part. I didn't angst over the "typical white" statement either.

I stand by my beliefs. The diarist made an inquiry to supporters of Clinton and I responded not with my heart, but with my cerebral membrane. If this two-fold strategy is successful and Obama is the Democratic nominee going into November, he will be elected as President. If not, McCain who many considered unviable, will be residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in January of 2009.

by Liberty on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

I don't think it credible to reduce the outcome of this race, whatever that may be, to the strategy you allege. Both candidates, or for that matter all three, should be judged more broadly on what they have to offer.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (1.66 / 6)

"And if you're not an Obama supporter, why are you here?"

The gall of this statement...
Many many democrats do not believe Obama can win, so we are here. Many many democrats do not like Obama or his policy positions, so we are here. Many many democrats cannot stand Kos and other sites that are all Clinton hate all the time, so we are here.

I do not want to be a "legitimate" Obama supporter, and as a candidate he has made it quite clear he neither wants or needs me, so I come here. Democracy and the democratic party are not about falling in line, they are about voicing your opinion and fighting for what you believe in. I believe in Hillary Clinton, I believe in the democratic party, I DO NOT believe in Senator Obama, so I come here. He does not speak for the whole party, he is not the whole party, and I have every right to say so as loudly and and forcefully as I want wherever I want.

If I wanted to fall in line I would be a republican, I would would be at Kos where back and forth stopped months ago, I would have joined the masses of Obama supporters who have ceased to think for themselves and to question what is happening in this race.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (1.25 / 4)

You are not willing to support the party's nominee, therefore you are actively working against the party's goals such as ending the war, and securing a woman's right to choose. If you are willing to stomp your feet and destroy the rights of woman by destroying the party's nominee for President, than you the biggest hypocrite on earth.

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

a lot of people are independents and are not of the Democratic party.

They have every right to vote for someone else who meets the progressive requirements.

not everything is D or R on the ticket.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't the ticket (2.00 / 1)

Its a Democratic site. Attacks on the Democratic party are against the guidelines.

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't the ticket (2.00 / 2)

nope, it isn't. Read the guidelines:

MyDD is a group blog designed to discuss campaigns, the progressive movement, and political power. We do polling, research, commentary, analysis, and activism.

note - it is for PROGRESSIVES. Not just democrats.

Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.

note - EXCESSIVE. Doesn't mean you cannot criticize or express extreme displeasure towards Democrats.

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't the ticket (none / 0)

Thank you. Being a democrat means saying what you think, we are not the party of one opinion, one talking point...yet.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't the ticket (none / 0)

And so are your comments implying that Clinton supporters are not Democrats and that they should not be listened to.

by optimisticBoy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's clear from your logon ID (1.50 / 2)

that you've trollish tendencies.

by aggieric on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 3)

Lack of support does not equal support for the opponent. The parties goals are my goals. Obama is not a party goal. He is a candidate and it is the right of every democrat to support whomever they chose. Stomping my feet would imply that I am saying Hillary or nobody, I am not saying that. I am simply saying that Obama has yet to prove to me that he is qualified for the office. You do not make the rules as to who is and is not a democrat, and supporting one candidate or another does not make a person part of a party or not.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:58:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why, thank you. I do believe (none / 0)

that's my first troll rate ever. Here's your chance to give me another!

by aggieric on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why, thank you. I do believe (none / 0)

What are you talking about? And, what did you find in my post worthy of a troll rating?

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I troll rated you because (none / 0)

you've thirteen ratings and made 8 comments; your logon ID is brand new and is a knock-off of an active diarist here. That suggests "troll". Or sock puppet intent on mischief. Or perhaps a banned person come back intent to cause trouble.

There's very little else that can be interpreted from it, given the facts.

by aggieric on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I troll rated you because (none / 0)

So what in my post deserved the troll rate?

by aIegre on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why, thank you. I do believe (none / 0)

Your name.

by Scotch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Many many democrats do not believe Obama can win, so we are here.

I have no problem with this statement as long as the primaries are still going on and Clinton is still in the race. The question is, after she concedes or suspends, will you turn your attention to helping him win or will you continue to work against him?

If your answer is that you will continue working against him, then your "he can't win" argument is a lie. You're clearly a passionate Clinton supporter and your efforts could certainly help him win in November.

If, however, you decide that you won't support Obama because you disagree with his policies, then will you still consider yourself a Democrat? His policy positions will be presented at the convention as the Democratic platform for the fall and if you so strongly disagree, will you change your registration?

The whole point of this is that this site will likely shift from one talking about the Democratic primary (and leaning pro-Clinton) to one that supports the Democratic party, both for president and for down-ticket races. You come here now because other Democratic blogs have become pro-Obama or anti-Clinton, but in a few weeks they'll all be pro-Obama, anti-McCain blogs. Will you still feel welcome here?

by Thadd Selden on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

I will not work against him, I doubt I will work for him. As with any candidate, including Hillary, I will question his policies, his statements and his actions when I feel they are contrary to my beliefs, as I would expect any person to do for any candidate.
As to weather or not I will feel welcome here or not I leave that up to chance. If diaries like his one keep getting posted chances are no. If the people on this site find it in themselves to question Obama as well as support him chances are I will feel welcome. I am a realist, I understand the reality of the situation, I do not however accept that just because he played the game better he is right for the party or the country.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Thank you for the reasoned response. I have to apologize for assuming that you were not quite as pragmatic as you have proven to be.

I'm hopeful that Obama and his supporters can win you over as this progresses towards the GE. I think you're right that part of that process will be a critical analysis of his policies and reasoned discussion about the pros and cons. I believe that people who are currently Clinton supporters will be most instrumental in refining and maturing those discussions and even affecting his actual policy direction (see diary on promoting "Women" to the "Issues" section of his website for a small example of the change we can influence).

I will work hard to make all Democrats feel welcome here and I hope that others on both sides of the fence do the same.

by Thadd Selden on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Someone who can actually win the General Election. (2.00 / 1)

Easy.

It's an election, not an auction.

by cosbo on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:37:22 PM EST

Precisement! (2.00 / 2)

I want someone who can win the GE. I support Hillary precisely because I believe Obama cannot. Nobody has asked my opinion yet (we don't vote in MT until June 3). Obama's coalition can clearly secure the nomination, but the GE? I don't see it happening. Oh well, after my primary my Clinton yard sign comes down and my Obama yard sign goes up, God help us all...

No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...

by jarhead5536 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisement! (none / 0)

Thank you very much for being honest about this. I think it's a great approach for people to support the primary candidate they think has the best chance in the GE.

What drives me nuts is the people who cite the "he can't win" argument and then refuse to work for him if he gets the nomination. If that's the reason not to vote for him, then doesn't it make sense that as Democrats we all should just work extra hard in the GE if he's the nominee?

Kudos to you for agreeing to support him; the more help we get, the better!

by Thadd Selden on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (1.66 / 3)

I support Senator Clinton. IF she wins I'll be happy.

If she concedes then I will support John McCain.

If she becomes the VP, then I will support HER as the VP.

My decision has been made (along with about 14 other people here in San Diego that are doing the same thing).

by nikkid on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:40:26 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

I'm honestly confused here.

If you support Clinton, why wouldn't your next choice be someone who agrees on Clinton on the issues instead of someone who opposes her there?

Beat McCain!

by thezzyzx on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 2)

Issues are very important. The presidency is more than issues. I have yet to be shown that Obama is qualified to be president. After 8 years of a "nice" guy who trusts advisers on issues he does not fully get I feel that the last thing this country needs is another "nice" guy with a thin resume. He has yet to show me the judgment necessary to handle the responsibility. I loath McCain's policy, but I trust his ability to lead. I would rather have him and an opposition congress than an untested element and a fawning congress. See bush if you want an example of what can happen. The crazy train goes both ways, just because we are democrats does not mean we are unfallable. See Vietnam.

by nyarch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Clinton has stated that she will support the Democratic nominee. If you support her, why wouldn't you follow her lead in that?

by Gene In PA on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

it is not about issues for me, it is about the candidate.

since I don't like obama, i cannot support him - it's really that simple.

by nikkid on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 3)

I feel fairly certain that I'm permanently alienated from the Obama camp, in large part because of the kind of presumption and arrogance which shows up regularly in diaries like yours.

People can argue until they're blue in the face that a handful of Obama supporters shouldn't alienate me from the candidate himself, but that's really just not true. I believe that the Obama campaign intentionally engaged in identity politics running up to the SC primary; they embraced homophobes and they sought ways to turn AAs against Clinton. In doing so, Axelrod showed himself to be the new Rove, and Obama sanctioned it - has to have sanctioned it. It's the campaign manager's job to do the scum work, and the candidate's job to go around trying to be contrite when the job gets dirty.

Just because I choose not to support one Democrat doesn't mean I get kicked out of the Democratic Party. I lived in Colorado when Ken Salazar won the Senate seat there; he's one of the most conservative Dems in the Senate - so conservative that he might as well be a Republican - and I didn't support him. No one back then demanded that I leave the Dem party. No one is demanding that Dems who support Mary Landrieu in LA leave the Dem party and she's practically a Republican too. Same for Heath Schuler from NC in the House, and the same for half a dozen or more elected DINOs, so why are Obama supporters demanding that I leave now?

by aggieric on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:50:01 PM EST

I didn't demand you leave (none / 0)

And you contradicted yourself. Did Obama alienate you or "Obama supporters"? I asked:

I - Why should anyone listen to those who have been absolutely insistent that HRC is going to win or that Obama is a candidate who can not win in the GE despite all the evidence?

II - For those who have been agreeing with these types of diaries/posts, is there anything that can really change your mind if it hasn't been so far?

Ken Salazar is welcome to the party. Doesn't mean you or I have to listen to him. Doesn't mean Landrieu has to have influence. So why should those who have been the most rapid and irrational (IMO) HRC supporters be listened to? Is there a path to consolidation or are the hardcore on this site and others done as a non-fringe portion of the "netroots"?

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't demand you leave (none / 0)

Yeah, they'll have influence if the Progressive Democrats want to continue to enjoy their majority status. Gosh, I hope logic and wisdome are not being enlisted on the endangered species list.

by Check077 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 1)

For folks like you to stop asking this question. Not helpful, you know?

No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...

by jarhead5536 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:53:45 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Based on your comment ("my Clinton yard sign comes down and my Obama yard sign goes up") I didn't really mean my comment to go to supporters like you. I didn't decide to support Obama until the day of my primary (largely over whether a black guy could win the general) and I would have supported HRC if she had won the primary battle.

My question is more intended to ask where all the visceral anti-Obama fire is going to go once he is the nominee.

McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.

by PantsB on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

OK...
A)Given the situation on pledged delegates. Obama insurmountable lead.
B)Leading with with SD's and Given the continued movement of SD's to Sen Obama.

Under what circumstances based on actual numbers and actual trend could Sen. Clinton be our nominee?

"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"

by nogo postal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:55:51 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

she makes her case to the SD's.

we know that the SD's are the ones deciding this nomination.

will it happen? Don't know. Probably not. But it could.

and hope & change is where it's at!!

by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (none / 0)

Fair, enough. For the sake of argument, lets call the odds 90% to 10% in favor of Obama getting the nomination. You are still hoping for that 10% to come true and I can respect that. But there's that 90% eventuality that she can't pull if off, what do you do then. I'm confident that both Clintons will suck in their pride (as generations of politicians have had to do) and support the nominee. What will you do then? The general election is a zero sum game, either we win or they do. There's no realistic third choice.

by Gene In PA on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:21:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh. One more week. Just one more week. n/t (none / 0)

John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.

by Travis Stark on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:02:46 PM EST

Re: What do you (HRC supporters) want? (2.00 / 2)

Look I'm an Obama supporter. And even don't think he is the nominee yet, Do all signs point that way? Yes. However one of two things has to happen for him first to be the presumptive nominee. He has to win the required number of delegates or Hillary has to suspend or concede.

He will not be the certified nominee until the vote at the convention. Just as McCain at this point is still the presumptive nominee for the Repugs until their convention.

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

by jsfox on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:11:28 PM EST

Your first sentence (none / 0)

I couldn't really take you seriously after this:

"Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee for President of the United States of America."

That simply isn't factual or true. Saying it doesn't make it so.

He isn't even the presumptive nominee yet. He hasn't crossed the finishline yet.

This is an incredibly close race which isn't over. Deal with it.

"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008

by twinmom on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:51:24 PM EST

He is the presumptive nominee (none / 0)

That much is definitely true.

by Slim Tyranny on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly, this diary is slightly offensive. (none / 0)

And franky, why should we listen to you? For those who have been spewing anti-Obama vitriol and have claimed HRC is still going to win, how can anyone see you as a legitimate Obama supporter once the general election comes?

I think you're being too strict in your requirements for who can be considered a legitimate Obama supporter. Up until the end of March, I sometimes criticized Obama harshly, even though I already knew he'd be the nominee. But if you are at all familiar with me, you'll know that I now spend a great deal of my time defending him (and even praising him). I moved beyond my dislike, and when Hillary drops out, I'll be every bit as legitimate as the rest of Obama's supporters. It will be very unfair if you decide to doubt us when we switch our support over to Obama, as we soon must. You can look at my sig and see that I've accepted the inevitable.

And if you're not an Obama supporter, why are you here?

I'm here because I like a lot of the people -- Obama supporters and Clinton supporters alike. I'm here to defend Hillary and Obama against baseless attacks from each side. I'm here to learn about Obama so that I can more effectively support him when he becomes the nominee. Clinton supporters have every right to be here.

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.

by sricki on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:19:38 PM EST

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